Is YWAM a Cult?

Loren Cunningham being carried by Thai people fading into picture of a YWAM base in Hawaii.

This is a transcript adapted from my interview with Rick Alan Ross as heard on Waves of Young People, a series about YWAM on Failed Missionary. You can hear the episode here.

Corey Pigg: Hey, I’m Corey and this is Failed Missionary. In starting this series off about YWAM (also known as Youth With A Mission), I thought I would pose a question:

What is the difference between ethical discipleship and brainwashing?

I know it sounds crazy, but the more I dig into the work of Kurt Lewin and Robert J. Liftin and cult experts like Rick Alan Ross, Steve Hassan, and Margaret Singer, the lines become very blurred. Especially when you look at the theological framework of Christianity here in the Western part of the globe, which admittedly is taking over most of the world at this point. And might I add, not by God’s hand, but by white theology and evangelical dominionism.

Let me just start by saying this. There are a lot of unanswered questions that we are going to dive into about YWAM and the breadth of its organization, but today we’re going to start by answering a commonly asked question: Is YWAM a cult? And to do that, I’m going to sit down with Rick Alan Ross, a world renowned cult expert that I met on my friend’s podcast: The Life After. You might’ve heard it. And we’re doing that because when I started this series, I interviewed over 50 individuals who had been in YWAM and it was so wild to me that for an organization that is so decentralized, somehow, in the hundreds of locations across the world, amongst thousands of their staff, a lot of these symptoms or behavioral systems were in place. And I wanted to find out why.

Interview with Rick Alan Ross begins

Corey Pigg: Let’s demystify the language a little bit. Could we easily break down or simplify the terminology of mind control, undue influence, and what is a destructive cult?

Rick Alan Ross: Well, first of all, a destructive cult…I think in my book Cults Inside Out, I have a chapter defining a destructive cult. And I think that it’s important that we not stretch it, and that it be focused. And I think the nucleus for a definition of a destructive cult was first arrived at by the psychiatrist Robert J Liftin in a paper that was published at Harvard University titled Cult Formation. And in it, Liftin describes three core characteristics that I believe formed the nucleus for a definition of a destructive cult. And that is:

1. An all powerful dictatorial leader who has no meaningful accountability and who is the defining element and driving force of the group and becomes essentially an object of worship. So you have like a Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. Charlie Manson.
2. Then the 2nd of those three core characteristics would be that the group uses coercive persuasion systematically in order to gain undue influence over its followers.
3. And then finally, number three, if it’s a destructive cult… that undue influence is used to exploit and do harm to people. And, people are acting against their own best interests, but consistently in the best interests of the leader in the group. And that varies by degree from group to group. So some groups are much more destructive than others, but you look for those three core characteristics:

1. The absolute authoritarian leader who is the defining element and driving force of the group.
2. The thought reform process or coercive persuasion used to gain undue influence. And then finally,
3. The use of undue influence to do harm to the individuals in the group or the organization.

Corey Pigg: Nice. Okay, that’s a good point to get at. Could we talk a little bit about the difference between a benign cult and a destructive cult? Because I feel like when we talk about YWAM or other missions organizations (which we’ll get into in a minute), they often (I feel like), can start as a benign cult and somewhere along the way they develop into a destructive cult.

Rick Alan Ross: I think the difference is, you could have an all powerful leader and that leader typically would be very charismatic, very, uh, intense. And that leader could have, a thought reform program or use coercive persuasion and influence techniques to gain undue influence and develop a mindset within the group. But, they may not do harm. In my experience though, absolute power corrupts absolutely as they say. And that typically these leaders who have dictatorial power without meaningful accountability will abuse that power. But I have seen charismatic leaders, for example, Paulo Soleri who headed a group called Arcosanti. And he came up with a philosophy called arcology. And he built this a very unusual kind of community North of Phoenix, Arizona. He had a very specific type of architecture. He had apprentices, people were devoted to him. He was very charismatic, but I never received complaints about that organization. So there are groups that follow an absolute authoritarian leader or a leader who is very charismatic and very controlling. I would also point out Steve Jobs really defined Apple in much the same way that Paolo Soleri defined Arcosanti. But yet, you know, Steve jobs really wasn’t a destructive cult leader. He had a kind of cult following, but I wouldn’t see him as destructive. And then there are organizations like Soul Cycle, CrossFit, Zappos, that have very charismatic leadership but really don’t generate complaints.

So what you look for is a pattern of complaints about harm being done.

Corey Pigg: Okay, that’s good. So let’s move and kind of shift gears into the YWAM world. So YWAM is where my background was, and most of the listeners should know what that is. But if you don’t, YWAM stands for Youth With A Mission. They’ve been around for a little over 50 years. And it started as a small project and now it’s blown up. It’s probably the biggest youth attracting missions organization. And often (in this day and age), they are using a lot of online marketing and clever hobby based tactics to lure young people into their DTSs, which stands for Discipleship Training School. It’s usually about (if you don’t know what it is), it’s about a six to seven month program. The first half of it is to teach you the YWAM ways of discipleship and missions. And then the last three months is putting that into practice. But shifting back to the cult psychology or however you want to phrase it, what I have noticed in my experience, and I’m speaking this as somebody that gave about five years of their life to the YWAM way…. what I noticed specifically is that I had a really good time in my DTS in 2011 but then I got roped in and guilted in into a staff commitment of two to five years. And then once you (if you’re young and impressionable) and you get roped into that, it’s hard to break out of it. And there’s a lot of stuff that comes with that. So what I noticed in the hundreds of emails that I get is the DTS seems to be designed unknowingly or knowingly to break an individual spirit and will so that they become open and broken enough to accept this manipulative idea of YWAM’s philosophy. So the question I wanted to pose to you is, when we think about mind control, there’s three phases usually: unfreezing, changing and refreezing. And I’m wondering how is this different or similar to ethical discipleship?

Rick: Well, look, I’ve had a lot of complaints about YWAM. In fact, I was hired by a family to do an intervention to get someone out of YWAM. Whats often been called deprogramming. And so I’ve dealt with YWAM extensively. In fact, I put a paper on The Cult Education Institute, a website culteducation.com, and it’s a report about YWAM that I first did in 1990 and then revised in 2007. I don’t see YWAM as a destructive cult. I see it as a destructive authoritarian organization. And the reason I say that is because I don’t see Loren Cunningham as a David Koresh, Jim Jones kind of figure. I don’t think he is worshiped by YWAMers in the way that Koresh or somebody like Charlie Manson would be worshipped. But I think he is a dynastic overlord. I mean he’s been in his position of authority for decades. His son David is like the era parent and it’s like a family business. And the complaints I get are that people have really had meltdowns through this whole intercession process that is promulgated and taught by YWAM. So when you go through DTS and you go through what they call intercession and you receive what you’re supposed to receive from the Lord, and there are actually, um, you know, nine specific steps in that YWAM process. The first is to make very sure that your heart is clean. And I think that’s really what Liftin and calls the demand for purity and a doctrine over person. And that is a kind of cleansing of anything that YWAM deems negative. And then the next step, you acknowledge that you cannot really pray without the direction and energy of the Holy spirit. And that is basically what they say it is. And there again, breaking you and they want you in submission and then they want you to die to your own imagination. So they’re breaking down your sense of autonomy, individual, unique personality. They want you to die to yourself and they want to supplant their mindset in you and then ask God to utterly control you. Since your discipler or your YWAM Authority is speaking on behalf of God and represents God in the discipleship process. They’re basically, when they say ask God to utterly control you, they really mean they are going to utterly control you. And then they tell you, praise him, meaning praise them and then deal aggressively with the enemy (that’s whoever YWAM says is the enemy) and then whale in silent expectancy, which is basically “be broken, be really broken” and then always have your Bible with you should God want to give you direction or confirmation from it. And again, I would say that they can twist the scriptures and confirm virtually anything given their understanding of how to play with the Bible and play with verses and so forth. And then finally when God sees to bring things to your mind for prayer, finished by praising and thanking him. So that’s basically lock it in, praise what we’ve done to you, praise how we have locked in this mindset and lock it in. And then again, the enemy could be old friends, family, anybody that would critique or question YWAM. And that’s the basic kind of complaints that I get from family, is that when they question YWAM, they become perceived very negatively or perceived as the enemy.

Corey: That’s great. I want to touch back on a point you made about Loren Cunningham not being a cult leader or the you, you said YWAM isn’t a cult, but you labeled them as a destructive authoritarian…. Um, I forgot how you mentioned…

Rick:…destructive authoritarian group.

Corey: Yes. That! So one thing, to touch on that point, that’s very important and the core values of YWAM is that they have the core value of decentralization and that’s in my opinion, what fosters a lot of the cult growth that you see within the fringe YWAM bases across the globe. Because I mean, my YWAM base was ran by a fanatic, radical, very popular European photographer and he was selling portraits and stuff to all these high end designers in Paris. And they never even knew what we did. But, all this to say, when the cult came crashing down, uh, he was, he grew our cult by the way, to the one of the biggest YWAM bases in the world through Google SEO. But to round that point out, when it came crashing down and I kind of had this public blow up with YWAM, they pretty much admitted that there was nothing that they would do or could do because of the decentralization and that this guy, you know, that’s his base, that’s his thing. They called this global leadership together, but they’re very quick to protect themselves even still. So anyways, the decentralization factor in YWAM makes it really interesting

Rick: Oh honestly, you know Corey, I just see that as plausible deniability. I see that as inherently what’s systemically wrong with YWAM. And it’s been going on and on and on and on. And they don’t take responsibility for when it goes off the rails. And it does go off the rails. And, you know, I’ve had complaints about different YWAM bases and, in fact, some of the worst complaints were about the Hawaii DTS. And the complaints were about Tom Hallas and Peter Jordan, who are now very high ranking in YWAM. And I also had complaints about Nick Savoca on Long Island in New York. And he’s still a head honcho over there. So the message from YWAM is: Are you bad? Do you do bad things? Are there a lot of complaints about you? We’re not going to do anything. The main thing is, look, we’ve basically given you a license. We’ve made you a franchisee. You can open up a DTS and do whatever you want. I think there’s been at least one instance where YWAM Central basically said to a DTS, you’re out, you’re out. And they pushed one out. But that’s the rarity more often they’re, I hate to make this analogy, but they’re like the Catholic Church with the Roman Catholic priests that go off the rails. They’re more concerned about the institution (YWAM) and the empire than they are about the individual people that are under the DTS. And that’s why I would never recommend YWAM to anyone for anything under any circumstances. And you know, praise the Lord, there’s plenty of other places to go. I mean, it’s not like YWAM has cornered the market on missions or being a missionary or doing charitable work in the Christian world. There’s plenty of other places to go. Why go to YWAM when they’re not willing to take a take responsibility for things when they go really bad?

Corey: I would say to that point, it’s very true, but I would say the reason why people go there is because they’ve become so clever in their marketing and structuring tactics of, you know, telling young people: “Oh, you’re an artist. You like to ski, you want to be a barista, come incorporate that into missions! You know, it’ll be a good time.”

Ads that are commonly seen around the internet for YWAM.

Corey (con’t): But yeah, to your point of them rarely kicking people out, I was in YWAM Herrnhut, which split off to YWAM Nurnberg. We became the radical branch. We disconnected from Herrnhut, but, you know, my leadership, they’re still there today, Josiah, Mona and this guy named Jan, he was the photographer. But when I got through all of this stuff and met with global leadership, the question that they posed to me was, (it was with Lynn Green and Mike Oman and some of these others that are leading this global leadership panel), their question to me was: “Well, what do you want us to do? What do you expect these people to do, Corey? We can’t just, you know, they can’t just go back to what they were doing. They’ve been doing this for so long. What do you want them to do?” And I’m like, “Well! I had to go back to America and figure out my life and figure out how to become a functioning adult again and surely they can do same, you know?” So…

(I met with Global Leadership due to an issue I raised with YWAM promoting the DTS I came from in YWAM Nuremberg / Nürnberg. You can read through it and interact here: https://www.facebook.com/YouthWithAMission/posts/10153978749212811.

Should the link be deleted, screenshots can be viewed, downloaded here.

Rick: Well, what you’re describing Corey, it’s deceptive. I mean, hey, “you’re a barista, you’re an artist. We’ll take care of you.” I mean, basically it’s the same old pitch, which is we are all things to all people. Uh, we’re whatever you want us to be. We’re fluid in order to basically do a bait and switch con, which is get you through the door. And once we get you into the DTS and we go through the breaking and the changing and the locking in, or as Edgar Schein who wrote Coercive Persuasion called it unfreezing, changing, refreezing.

Once they get you into their bubble and they start working on you and breaking you down, all of their promises kind of are fleeting. And what you’re left with is: “Hey, I’m in this DTS and I may not even know how to get home. I may be in a third world country, a developing country, and I may not be able to get home easily. And, they may even have my passport and I may not have any money. So how am I going to get back?” And by the way, for anybody that’s saying: Well, wait a minute, “Hey Rick, that’s crazy!” No, I’ve had those calls, that has happened. To people who have literally run with no papers, no money in a country they don’t know anybody in trying to find a way to get home. And then when they get home, they’re a mess and they’re trying to figure out what the hell happened to me. And they begin to sort it out. And it’s really bad. And I’ll tell you something, Loren Cunningham and the Cunningham family created a, if you will, an empire and all these people that become disciples, they become missionaries for YWAM, they hit up their family, their friends, “everybody give me money, pay in the money to YWAM.” And then YWAM, as I recall, acts as a funnel. And then all the money goes through “Cunningham central” (YWAM). And then that money is then fed out to the various DTSs and who knows what is going on. You know, when Bill Bright was alive and he ran Campus Crusade, there was criticism about Campus Crusade, and before Bill Bright died, he addressed those criticisms. One of them was financial transparency because campus crusade collected a great deal of money to support their missionaries, their people, recruiting and reaching people on campuses. Uh, so YWAM, I would say I’m not aware that they’ve ever done that. Does anybody know in detail how much money they they take in a year? How that money is paid? How much Loren Cunningham gets every year? How much does David Cunningham get? How much does Nick Savoca, Tom Hallas, Peter Jordan, what do they get? And how much money is taken off the top before it goes out to the DTSs, I mean, I would like to see the same kind of financial transparency at YWAM that existed when Billy Graham ran his evangelistic crusade or when Bill Bright instituted financial transparency for Campus Crusade or for that matter, the Navigators who have a great deal of financial transparency. And then also, I would like to see democratic governance with checks and balances and bylaws. So that individual YWAMers have some rights and have a way to redress their grievances, which they currently, as far as I know, do not have.

Corey: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, so many points you hit on I’m the poster child for a lot of those things like being set up for failure in front of the Chinese police and running from the Chinese government and having to maneuver these two minors around Asia because of anti-trafficking laws and the radicalness of YWAM. But, uh, all this to say, to go back to the financial question, when I was a missionary in YWAM, I even still to this day, you’ll see it on a lot of YWAM missionaries pages, their financial funnel is through YWAM Tyler and for some reason they instruct everybody to go through YWAM Tyler. And then YWAM Tyler apparently just distributes the cash. Um, but when I can just say from my experience as a staff membe and a student, there was always the hint of financial pressure. So if you’re a student, you know, you need to pay in, pay, in, pay in. If you’re a staff member, you have to pay staff fees, pay in pay in pay in. And there’s always seemed to be a financial drought. And there was never any rhyme or reason as to why.

Rick: Well, the only the Cunninghams and the key people in Tyler know exactly what’s going on financially. I mean, David Cunningham did movies for crying out loud, uh, that were in part financed by YWAM. And, uh, and so David Cunningham has been to Hollywood, you know, he’s, he’s doing his little projects and whatever and there’s really no meaningful financial transparency. And what I’m talking about is a published annual budget that describes in detail all compensation, salaries, benefits, everything that is paid out of the money that is collected. Is there a service fee that every DTS pays out of the gross dollars it receives through Tyler? How much do the Cunningham’s really have? What is their compensation package? Do they have health insurance? How much is that? Do they have a parsonage allowance? How much is that? What does Nick Savoca get? What is Tom Hallas getting? What are these people get? Because you’ve got these people who are very devoted, very sacrificial, who are living in these DTSs who are living day to day. It’s not like they’re living a lavish lifestyle. I mean, what kind of a lifestyle are the Cunningham’s living? And how do they rationalize that? You have to have that kind of crystal clear financial transparency.

For example, somebody once complained to me about Billy Graham and how much money he made. And I said, “You know what? Reverend Billy Graham makes a very good salary and he’s made a lot of money in his life. But you know what? You know how much he makes because he publishes an annual budget. That’s why you know” This guy was complaining to me that, you know, he’s been sick, he hasn’t been out and he’s still getting full salary. And I thought, well, he did give his whole life to this crusade and his son succeeded him, but he had to be approved by the board. And there are checks and balances in that evangelistic crusade. Billy Graham always disclosed his complete compensation. So, Loren Cunningham, David Cunningham…hey! step up, be like Billy Graham. Be financially transparent. Let all the YWAMers know how much money you make every year. And I would even like to see a financial statement on the net worth of Loren Cunningham and David Cunningham, because I think they’ve gotten very rich from YWAM. I mean we’re talking about millions and millions and millions of dollars with virtually no meaningful accountability. And then what I find disturbing is when things go off the rails, they don’t even take responsibility, but they still want the money to flow through Tyler (or wherever) and then be distributed out to the DTSs. So we may not take responsibility for what goes wrong on a DTS, but hey, don’t forget our cut. You know? and if I’m wrong, prove me wrong, and have a complete detailed financial disclosure of your annual budget and let’s see what it’s all about.

Corey: Yeah, you touched on something very interesting and I’m wondering just real quick (and then we’ll come back to YWAM. But, it’s actually a part of it.) So you mentioned David Cunningham being involved with movies and Hollywood. Are you familiar with the new apostolic reformation and this… like Bethel? Hillsong? Uh, YWAM… It’s all those similar circle of people. But they’re big on dominion over these seven mountains, which they call, and it’s religion, family education, government, media, arts and entertainment and business. Have you come into contact with any of that?

Rick: Yeah, yeah. Nick Savoca and I talked about a year ago when I interviewed him on Long Island, and he talked to me about Gary North and, you know, dominion theology, and that type of, uh, religious Reconstructionism and it’s very disturbing. I mean, there was a dictator in, what was it? Uh, Ríos Montt that was endorsed by Loren Cunningham and he was a ruthless dictator in Central America. And for a period of time, Loren Cunningham endorsed him and supported him. And that was part of this dominion theology, which Nick Savoca admitted to me that he had been discipled by this theology and that it was something that he was very well aware of. So yeah, this mix of politics and religion. Of course, David Cunningham came out with that 911 documentary that was so controversial that was seen as a kind of a right wing hit job on the Clinton’s and you know, it’s okay to have a political point of view. I’m not here to defend the Clinton’s.

I’m interviewed on MSNBC, on CNN, on Fox, and I’ve been interviewed by conservatives and liberals. So the issue is the mixing of religion and politics. And in particular, if you’re a 501(c)3 and you’re a religious nonprofit, you’re not supposed to do that. And you’re not supposed to use your money to do that. You’re given tax exempt status and you’re supposed to honor that by not getting involved in politics.

Corey: Yeah. That’s the thing though. This is the issue that we’re up against in this polarizing world is that the freedom of mind is becoming a liberal issue and the “religious freedom”, so to speak, which is the protection around these dominionism or conservative religious ideas are becoming a political idea. And I’m just like, what is our path forward? I mean, as somebody that’s a that’s a cult expert. How do you stay in a non-dual framework?

Rick: I think you focus on behavior, not belief. You focus on when people do bad things that hurt other people. I think that’s where you bring everybody together.

So if somebody has been ripped off financially by an unethical pastor or head of some organization that claims to be religious or spiritual or, if children children are exploited in child labor, there’s sexual abuse, there’s physical abuse, there’s medical neglect… I think these are issues we can all come together on. You don’t have to be a conservative to care about kids. Or liberal to care about kids. You can be either and still have concerns. So I think that’s where we come together when we focus on behavior. We don’t get into doctrinal differences. We don’t get into, what do you believe? I think you’re wrong to believe that. We talk about: How are you treating people in your organization? Are you abusing them? Are you hurting them? Are they in pain? What are you doing to them? To their family? To their life that could be seen as destructive? (Objectively).

Corey: Yeah, that’s great. It’s just a challenge that we’re up against, especially with, you know, when I came out against (YWAM) and started sharing all of this abuse that I had went through in YWAM, and you know, I’ve been in therapy for almost five years now on and off. Um, but a lot of people paint me as, you know, and everybody else that has fans of the show or listeners of the show, they get painted very quickly as bitter or jaded or, you know, they say, “you shouldn’t critique until you’re able to speak in love.” that’s a big one from some Christians that I hear a lot.

Rick: Oh, come. Corey, look, that is a way of dismissing any criticism. So, what is the message? You know, what would be acceptable in a critique of YWAM. Is there a legitimate reason to leave? Or is everyone wrong in leaving? And if somebody leaves and they have criticism, why is that always stereotyped as bitterness or negativity when it could be seen as constructive and meaningful in building YWAM and making it a better place. So, I mean, you, you benefit from the correction of your mistakes. And if you have an organization that cannot acknowledge mistakes, and that basically dispenses the existence of anyone who is a critic, they, they bash critics, they bash people that leave. What is their message? The only person that we’re going to listen to is somebody who may be left a DTS, who has nothing but positive things to say and anyone who says anything negative and criticizes our leadership or the way we run our DTSs, they’re bitter.

You know that kind of, we, they mentality that kind of black and white thinking, that is a very cult-like. And that is why people will sometimes say that YWAM is like a cult.

Because they talk like it and they treat people who have left that have suffered, like you would expect a destructive cult to treat people that leave. And in fact, the message is…there is no legitimate criticism really. And the objective proof is Tom Hallas, Peter Jordan, Nick Savoca, people that have really hurt some families and hurt people (according to people that have left and families that I’ve heard from), they’re still there and the organization is doing nothing to address the critique of those individuals or what they did. So, you know, it’s sad. It’s sad and that’s why democratic governance as opposed to, a ruling elite ecclesiastical authority, is preferable. And in fact, that was part of the Protestant reformation… Was the idea that power should devolve from the top and that there shouldn’t be these kind of, uh, religious Kings or rulers and some of these mega churches that you’ve named, that have these charismatic leaders, and some of these, religious organizations, these para-church organizations like YWAM, that have a dynastic family in charge, like the Cunninghams, they’re more like the Pope and the old Catholic church that Martin Luther protested than they are the Protestant churches that we see around us in the U S that have democratically elected government.

Contributor 1 (Former YWAMer): I never dreamed that YWAM would have the negative effects that it has had on me. I struggle a lot since coming home. I even have trouble sleeping some nights. I still have flashbacks. I’m still a Christian, but Christianity is all a bunch of confusion to me now. I, um, I don’t know what my relationship with Christianity is at the moment. I still believe in God and have a relationship with God, but Christianity is a whole other issue. I was deeply scarred by my time with YWAM and I don’t recommend it to anyone. It just confirmed what I already believed about short term missions, which I was hoping they could change my mind.

Contributor 2 (Former YWAMer): Hi, my name is Mary. I grew up in YWAM and volunteered with them and did a DTS as well. Uh, my DTS was abusive towards me specifically, but as well as the other students as well, but for me it was in the form of ableist abuse. Um, so I kept detailed notes of specific things that happened and things that were said to me. It took a long time for me to recover and feel okay and safe again. I would have fears of my former abusers coming to find me even though I was like in a different country. My main concern of YWAM is that the abuse is like an open secret. Growing up YWAM I definitely know that and it didn’t really hit me until experiencing myself like how bad it was and how there’s just no help for victims once it happens or anything really done to prevent it. Um, yeah. Thank you.

Contributor 3 (Former YWAMer, current missionary): Hey there Corey. My name is Kyle. Um, the story is quite traumatic. There’s a lot to it so it’ll be hard to do in 90 seconds, but I’ll try. My wife and I, Marilyn, we did YWAM DTS in Oslo, Norway in the early two thousands. Right away, we learned quickly we were not allowed to ask questions as it pertained to theology. There were things that were like, well, how do you reconcile X and Y? That was seen as dissension. They regularly split my wife and I up, especially in the missions thing, they wouldn’t let us stay in the same room as a married couple. That was really, really hard and frustrating for us. It culminated when we did a missions in Western Europe where, uh, we had one, one guy with us who had just come off of a nervous breakdown, was now showing signs of it again in suicidal thoughts and the leaders weren’t doing anything. And so we were on suicide watch on our own and going into his room late at night. That whole thing culminated with my wife’s anxiety and depression, probably to the point of overwhelming endemic saying she just needed to pray harder and trust God more, which was awful. They eventually sent us back to the base in the middle of the missions portion, but they wouldn’t reopen the base. So we had an apartment, we had a place to say, but we had no access to the outside world or any food or any money. So we had to dumpster dive for food for a month, until they would reopen the base. It was horrific. We’re back in missions now, but there was a lot of pain that led to that. So there’s lots in those stories. So take care man.

Corey Pigg:

So YWAM as we know it is not a cult. But it does provide one with the cult experience.

And as Steve Hassan says, “the best way to learn about a specific group is to locate a former member or a former member’s written or video account. Ex-members are always a great source of information. Steve Hassan points out that there are a number of things that go into this cult experience and that is: The doctrine is reality. Reality is black and white, good versus evil. Maybe your group has an elitist mentality. Perhaps it’s the group will over the individual will. Strict obedience. Modeling the leader, your happiness is dependent on others rewarding your good performance. Manipulation through fear and guilt. A lot of emotional highs and lows or the thought that there is no way out. I know several times for me, I was told that if I was going to leave YWAM, I would lose all potential in life and literally that they were the only group who could fulfill God’s calling on my life. Now, obviously that sounds so silly to me now, but there was a moment in time where I was a very young and impressionable person and I fell for all of those things and I got stuck in this world for years on end. So after cross-referencing hundreds of interviews that I’ve conducted with people in YWAM, the World Race and other missions organizations like those, I decided to ask Rick Alan Ross what his work looks like compared to Steve Hassan’s.

Rick: Yeah, In my book Cults Inside Out, I have a chapter defining a destructive cult and also a chapter assessing a group as being potentially unsafe. And I’ll give you my top 10.

1. There’s an absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. There’s no tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. There’s no meaningful financial disclosure regarding the budget expenses. For example, an independently audited financial statement that’s published every year.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies, persecution.
5. That there is no legitimate reason to leave. Former members are always wrong and leaving negative or even considered evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse that reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group or the leader.
8. Followers feel they can, (and this is a big one), followers feel they can never be good enough.
9. The group or leader is always right.
10. The group or leader is the essentially exclusive means of knowing the truth or receiving validation. And no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

And that’s when you kind of foster this feeling like, hey, we’re God’s green Berets. Other Christians may be pretty good, but you know, maybe they’re kind of like Luke warm and we’re the ones who are really hot for God. Everybody else is not really as totally committed as we are. So you’re harboring this kind of spiritual eliteism about your group and you’re looking down at other organizations, even other churches and saying, Hey, we’re, we’re the super church. We’re God’s green Berets.

Corey: That’s great. Wow. You said it better than what I came up with. Probably why you have your job. So shifting gears, I want to get into protection and recovery. So for some on the outside looking in…like family, or family members, I get emails from family members all the time that are so nervous about their kids or their nephews or nieces, but um, or maybe those on the inside that are observing, trying to figure out if they should get out. What are things that both parties should be looking for in order to take action?

Rick: Well, I think that if, if a group is safe and it’s a good group, they’ll be very transparent in they’ll answer your questions. And if they don’t, that should be a warning flag. I think if you’re, if you’ve got a person in your family and they’re very obsessive about the group, if they seem to be losing their sense of humor, their individual identity, and that whenever the group is questioned, it’s labeled as persecution and you’re hearing like this kind of stilted jargon over and over again that is redundant and repetitive that is filled with the, you know, group talk and that you get this sense from your loved one, that they’re very dependent on the group to think for them, that they’re not making their own value judgments anymore. And they’re just not spontaneous. And when you raise the issue of former members, they’re indicting them and they’re, you know, saying, Oh, they’re bitter. They’re, they’re backsliders. They’re rebelling against God. They have an evil spirit. They need deliverance. I mean, when, when they’re talking to you like that, they may be in a destructive authoritarian group and you need to really look at that. And ultimately, you need to be very careful. Don’t use the “C” word. Don’t say cult. Don’t be judgmental. Be loving, be kind, be a good listener and then at the same time, do a lot of reading. My book is good. There are other books that are good and you can read and understand how authoritarian groups like this operate and then kind of develop coping strategies. I’ve got a whole chapter in my book about coping strategies.

Corey: Great. I’ll be sure to share that by the way, with the listeners and beyond. For the person that is in the cult or the potentially destructive, um,…

Rick: Destructive Authoritatian Group (laughs)

Corey: Yes! What is actually going on within that person that is continually subjecting themselves to undue influence?

Rick: What has happened is that they are programmed and that’s why they call the intervention process, deprogramming. The individual is locked into a mindset. They’re dependent on the group leadership to think for them and they’re being reinforced by the people in the group around them and they’re in a bubble. And the key, the first step in breaking free is unplugging from the mothership and getting out there and being on your own. That forces you to critically and independently think for yourself. Now, you may get a little panicky and you may think, well, I’m not used to this. Where’s my discipler? Where’s my spiritual covering? I’m shivering here. I need help. But I think the thing to do is do some reading. Read about a course of persuasion, read about undue influence, read about thought reform and influence techniques. There are some great books out there and figure out in retrospect what happened that brought you into this kind of controlling situation where you lost your ability to make your own value judgments and function independently. And by understanding how the game was played and how you were programmed, you can unwind it. And don’t blame yourself. Don’t be self-loathing. And get into that because you need to realize that many of these groups are very predatory. They’re relentlessly deceptive. And so you should not beat up on yourself and say, Oh, I’m a terrible person. I’m an idiot. I’m a fool, how could I get into that? Uh, look, I’ve, I’ve been involved in over 500 interventions and out of those 500, five of them were medical doctors. One was an orthopedic surgeon, another was a well known anesthesiologist. It can happen to anyone and don’t beat up on yourself and let yourself have the space to recover and educate yourself. That’s the road to recovery.

Corey: Oh, that’s amazing. Well, that’s great. And you know, the last question I had, you know, this kind of goes back to this unfortunate polarizing culture that we’re living in, but, um, if you had to alert the public to be on guard for situations facing us today with undue influence, what would that be for? And what are things that we should be watching for as a society?

Rick: We need to be critical thinkers. We need to be analytical. We need to engage in due diligence before we pull the trigger on making a commitment. We need to know the facts. We need to get online and we need to do a search. We need to find out everything we can about a multilevel marketing scheme. About a business proposition based on, uh, some kind of MLM multilevel marketing. We need to know the background of churches and organizations that are asking us for money, asking us for our time. We need to ask lots of questions and we need to use our handheld electronic devices, our desktops, our laptops, our phones to find that information so that we know who and what we’re dealing with before we get so involved that it’s difficult to get independent facts and to make an informed decision. I mean, that’s the key is making a truly informed decision because we’ve done the right amount of research or as much as we can and we’ve really drilled down and figured out what’s happening before we make a commitment.

Corey: Awesome. Well, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been very helpful. Thank you.

Corey: So there you have it. Part 1 on Waves of Young People with Rick Alan Ross asking: Is YWAM a cult? And (I hope), getting to the bottom of: What is the difference between ethical discipleship and brainwashing?

If you have thoughts, comments, or you want to get in touch about your experience in YWAM, go to failedmissionary.com and look for the Waves of Young People section. There are plenty of ways to connect if you would like to be a part of this. All resources mentioned here on the show can be found in the show notes and on failedmissionary.com/wavesofyoungpeople.